PBS Hawaii – INSIGHTS: Where Does Hawaii Stand on Renewable Energy‌?

>>MALIA: HAWAI'I'S ENVIRONMENT ALLOWS US TO HARNESS ENERGY FROM THE LAND, OCEAN WIND AND SUN. BUT ARE WE DOING ENOUGH TO MEET THE STATE'S GOAL OF DERIVING 40% OF OUR ENERGY FROM ALTERNATIVE RESOURCES BY 2030? ARE WE MAKING PROGRESS TOWARDS BEING LESS DEPENDENT ON FOSSIL FUELS? WHERE DOES HAWAI'I STAND ON RENEWABLE ENERGY? >>MALIA: SCHOOLING UP NEXT ON INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I, WHERE DOES HAWAI'I STAND ON RENEWABLE ENERGY? >>MALIA: ALOHA AND WELCOME TO INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I. I'M MALIA MATTOCH. HAWAI'I RESIDENTS PAY THE HIGHEST ELECTRICITY RATES IN THE NATION. WITH OUR BOUNTIFUL OCEAN, TRADEWINDS GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES AND YEAR-ROUND SUNSHINE, WE CAN GENERATE OUR OWN POWER AND REDUCE OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOSSIL FUELAL THE PRICE FLUCTUATIONS THAT COME WITH IT THE UNDER THE HAWAI'I CLEAN ENERGY INITIATIVE, 40% OF OUR ENERGY MUST BE FROM RENEWABLE RESOURCES FROM 2030. WHERE DOES HAWAI'I STAND ON RENEWABLE ENERGY? WE INVITE TO YOU JOIN OUR CONVERSATION BY CALLING, E-MAILING OR TWEETING YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.

NOW TO OUR PANEL. SCOTT SEU IS THE VICE PRESIDENT FOR ENERGY RESOURCES AND OPERATIONS AT HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC COMPANY. HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANNING RENEWABLE ENERGY CONTRACTING, DEPLOYMENT OF NEW ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES AND OPERATIONS ON OAHU. CYNTHIA THIELEN IS A STATE OF HAWAI'I REPRESENTATIVE FOR KAILUA AND KANEOHE BAY. SHE IS THE RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION COMMITTEE. JEFFREY MIKULINA IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF BLUE PLANET FOUNDATION, A NONPROFIT FUNDED BY TETRIS GAME ENTREPRENEUR HENK ROGERS. BLUE PLANET IS DEDICATED TO MAKING HAWAI'I A ROLE MODEL FOR CLEAN ENERGY SOLUTIONS. LESLIE COLE-BROOKS IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE HAWAI'I SOLAR ENERGY ASSOCIATION. SHE IS A LAWYER WITH EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE IN RENEWABLE ENERGY POLICIES AND ISSUES. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. A TIMELY TOPIC. A LOT OF THIS IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. JEFF, CAN WE START WITH YOU? COULD YOU TELL US WHAT IS RENEWABLE ENERGY? HOW DO YOU DEFINE IT? I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ON THE SHOW TONIGHT. RENEWABLE ENERGY, ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT I THINK IS USEFUL IS HOW NEW THAT ENERGY IS. IF YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE FOSSIL FUELS, WHICH ARE REALLY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD, THINGS LIKE GAS OR OIL OR GAS YOU PUT IN YOUR CAR OR COAL, THINGS THAT CAME FROM MICROSCOPIC ORGANISMS WAY BACK WHEN, THEY'RE VERY OLD.

NUCLEAR BEING OLDER THAN THAT. BUT RENEWABLE ENERGY IS SOMETHING THE SUN, 8 MINUTES AWAY. TAKES LIGHT TO TRAVEL FROM THE SUN TO EARTH. WIND THAT COMES FEW HOURS LATER. IT'S REALLY YOUNG ENERGY BUT IT'S RENEWABLE AND DOESN'T LEAD TO THE BUILD-UP OF CARBON DIOXIDE IN OUR ATMOSPHERE. SUSTAINABLE, SOMETHING WE CAN COUNT ON DAY AFTER DAY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT'S RIGHT HERE IN HAWAI'I. HAWAI'I IS BLESSED WITH THIS WHOLE MIX. YOU ITERATED ALL THE DIFFERENT SOURCES OF ENERGY WE HAVE HERE. FROM SUNSHINE, WAVE, WIND, GEOTHERMAL, BIOMASS AND ALL OF THAT IS REPLENISHND AND REFRESHED AND WE CAN COUNT ON IT DAY AFTER DAY. >>MALIA: WHAT IS THE LEGISLATURE IS MAKE SURE WE'RE TAPPING INTO RENEWABLE ENERGY? WHAT BILLS ARE ON THE TABLE. >> MYRIAD OF BILLS BOTH ON THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE SIDE AND ONE OF THE MEASURES THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THAT WE HEAR FROM, FROM OUR CONSTITUENTS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE COST OF ENERGY BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE JUST BEING CRIPPLED BY THAT.

ALSO THE THING THAT SCOTT, YOU'VE HEARD ME SAY THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN, THAT WE NEED TO ALLOW PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO TAKE OUT THOSE LOANS THAT ARE VERY COSTLY, BUT THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE OUT THE LOANS TO PUT IN PHOTOVOLTAIC. BECAUSE THAT WILL THEN BRING THEIR UTILITY BILL DOWN TO JUST A VERY MODEST AMOUNT, ALMOST MINIMAL FEE. THEY CAN'T HOOK UP. AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC IN SEPTEMBER, I BELIEVE, IT WAS, CALLED A HALT TO HOOK-UPS, SO SOME PEOPLE WERE CAUGHT IN THAT NEVER, NEVER LAND OF PAYING MONEY ON A MORTGAGE AND THEN NOT BEING ABLE TO HOOK UP TO GET THE BENEFIT OF BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE THEIR OWN POWER FROM THE SUN. >>MALIA: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT TOPIC SINCE IT'S BEEN RAISED. SCOTT, CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT CONCERN AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE LEGISLATURE IN TERMS OF MOVING THAT ISSUE FORWARD? WHERE DOES IT STAND RIGHT NOW? >> LET ME START BY SAYING THAT BACK IN SEPTEMBER, WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALL A HALT TO THE HOOK TURNS. WE SAID WE WERE GOING TO BE SO FAR ALONG IN FAR AS HOW MUCH SOLAR ENERGY WE WERE PUTTING IN SOME OF THE AREAS THAT OF THE ISLAND, WE ACTUALLY HAD TO ADOPT A NEW PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THAT ANYBODY WHO DID WANT TO HOOK UP HAD TO WORK THROUGH A HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC REVIEW JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAD SAFE INTERCONNECTION.

THE BILL THAT REPRESENTATIVE THIELEN IS TALKING ABOUT IS HOUSE BILL 1943, IS THAT? 1943. AND IT ADDRESSES INTERCONNECTION. IT CALLS FOR THE PUC TO OPEN UP A NEW PROCEEDING WHICH WOULD LOOK AT HOW DO YOU IMPROVE THE INTERCONNECTION PROCESS? IT ALSO LOOKS AT WHAT TYPES OF RATEMAKING STRUCTURES COULD PROVIDE MORE INCENTIVES FOR GRID MODERNIZATION, WHICH WOULD HELP FURTHER TO BE ABLE TO INTERCONNECT. WE, HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC NUMBER OF PARTIES, WE HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS ABOUT HOW THAT PUC REVIEW SHOULD BE DONE. BUT I THINK ONE THING IS COMING OUT IN THE VARIOUS PARTY'S TESTIMONY WHICH IS THAT I THINK EVERYBODY WANTS TO HAVE THAT PUC REVIEW BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY TECHNICAL AND ECONOMIC ISSUES RIGHT NOW THAT ARE SORT OF FLOATING OUT THERE AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR ALL OF THE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE IS THIS GOING AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE BILL IS ABOUT. WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THE BILL IS STRUCTURED, BUT I THINK THAT WE DO ABSOLUTELY WANT TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION, HAVE THE PUC TAKE A LOOK AT THESE ISSUES.

>>MALIA: LESLIE, YOU REPRESENT THE SOLAR INDUSTRY. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT BILL? >> I'M REALLY GLAD TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT. INTERCONNECTION IS KEY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THINGS HAVE SLOWED SIGNIFICANTLY SINCE THE RULES THAT CAME OUT IN SEPTEMBER. THERE'S BEEN ABOUT A 50% DROP IN INSTALLATION. SO AS REPRESENTATIVE THIELEN SAID, IT'S BEEN VERY ONEROUS FOR CUSTOMERS AND THE INDUSTRY AND OUR CLEAN ENERGY GOALS AND THE ENVIRONMENT AND EVERYTHING. SO WE ARE MOVING FORWARD. I'M VERY HOPEFUL ABOUT THE MEETING THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TOMORROW TO TRY TO HAMMER OUT SOME OF THE DIFFICULTIES AND CONCERNS. I THINK IT GETS COMPLICATED BECAUSE THERE'S SEVERAL DOCKETS AT THE PUC RIGHT NOW AND WHAT THIS BILL DOES IS IT REALLY PUTS A TIME LINE ON WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT THE HUCH PUC BECAUSE THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE INTEGRATED RESOURCE PLAN, DECOUPLING, FEET IN TARIFF. A LOT GOING ON. WHAT HAPPENS IS DOES IT HAPPEN FAST ENOUGH.

THAT THERE ARE VERY COMPLICATED ISSUES. THIS FRAMES IT AND HAS A TIME LINE. >>MALIA: FOR THOSE OUT THERE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS AND WONDERING WHEN DO I HAVE A SHOT AT TRYING TO GO AHEAD AND GET SOLAR, IS THERE AN EASY ANSWER? IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WILL GET RESOLVED FAIRLY QUICKLY?, SCOTT? >> UNFORTUNATELY, IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU LIVE. THE CHALLENGE THAT WE HAVE IS THAT GIVEN NEIGHBORHOOD DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH PV IS ALREADY INSTALLED, THAT IT'S WHERE WE START TO SEE POTENTIAL RISK AS FAR AS FROM AN ELECTRIC SAFETY AND RELIABILITY PERSPECTIVE. SO WHAT WE ARE REALLY FACED WITH IS THAT IN SOME AREAS, THERE'S STILL ROOM TO BE, FOR PV TO BE APPROVED AND INSTALLED. IN OTHER AREAS, WE ARE AT LEVELS THAT UNPRECEDENTED FRANKLY LEVELS OF HOW MUCH PV IS INSTALLED ON A ELECTRIC CIRCUIT. SO FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THOSE TYPES OF NEIGHBORHOODS, THAT'S WHERE IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

WE ARE NEEDING TO SPEND MORE TIME EITHER DOING SOME STUDIES OR IN THE EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE HAVE CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS THAT WE'RE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL THAT YOUR VOLTAGE ON THE ELECTRIC SYSTEM MIGHT ACTUALLY SPIKE UP. SO WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ADDITIONAL THINGS CAN WE PROVIDE OR CAN THE SOLAR CONTRACTORS PROVIDE WHICH WOULD ADDRESS THAT TYPE OF ISSUE. WHAT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO IS WE ARE SO FAR AHEAD IN CERTAIN AREAS OF THE ISLAND IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH PV WE HAVE, THAT IT IS A CHALLENGE. WE ARE TRYING TO FIND OUT MORE TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS. IT'S NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS TO HEAR BEFORE LAST YEAR, PROBABLY NONE OF OUR RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS EVEN HAD TO WORRY ABOUT INTERCONNECTION. NOBODY EVEN UNDERSTOOD WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO INTERCONNECT. AND WHERE WE ARE TODAY, I THINK, IS THAT WITH THE BOOM IN SOLAR, WE ARE NOW AT THOSE POINTS WHERE WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE SAFE.

>>MALIA: JEFF, AS A PROPONENT OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, ARE YOU SATISFIED SORT OF WITH THAT BEING THE STATE OF AFFAIRS? >> WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK ANY OF US ARE SATISFIED. BUT FIRST OF ALL, STEPPING BACK, THIS IS REALLY EX-SITESSING. THIS IS WITNESSING THE GROWTHS IN SOLAR BOTH IN ROOFTOPS, UTILITY SCALES, SEEN THE WIND PROJECTS, THIS IS THE SPEED AND SCALE OF RENEWABLE ENERGY THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN HAWAI'I FOR DECADES. YOU ARE REMEMBER. YES. IN FACT, 1978, STATE SENATE WAS TALKING ABOUT ENERGY INDEPENDENCE IN 2010. THIS IS FINALLY HAPPENING. THAT'S EXCITING. HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC DEFENSE, THEY ARE REALLY IN A PLACE RIGHT NOW THAT I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE FORESAW, THAT WE'D HAVE TO MAKE THESE REALLY RADICAL TECHNICAL CHANGES TO THE GRID TO ENABLE ALL OF THIS RENEWABLE ENERGY. THAT'S A REAL CHALLENGE.

SO WE SEE CHANGE HAS TO HAPPEN ON 3 LEVELS. THE ONE IS THE REAL TECH ANY IT CAL STUFF THAT SCOTT WAS JUST ALLUDING TO. IT COULD BE ENERGY STORM LIKE BATTERIES ON CIRCUITS, TECHNICAL STUFF, ENABLE CONTROL OF THE FLOW OF ELECTRICITY. SECOND THING THAT HAS TO HAPPEN IS REGULATORY SIDE. THIS IS SORT OF A NEW LANDSCAPE. NOW YOU HAVE ALL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CUSTOMERS THAT ARE NOW GENERATING YOUR OWN ENERGY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE LAST SENSORY. IT WAS KIND OF A ONE WAY FLOW. SO MAKING SURE THOSE PRICES ARE RIGHT, AND EVERYTHING IS VALUED CORRECTLY. THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL FOR THE REGULATORY SIDE. THEN THE THIRD PIECE. THIS IS ONE WHERE THE ONUS ON THE UTILITY, THEIR BUSINESS IS CHANGING. AFTER AGAIN A CENTURY OF ESSENTIALLY SELLING A COMMODITY, LEAK OF ELECTRICITY, THEY'RE GETTING IN A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP WITH CUSTOMERS NOW WHERE THEY MIGHT BE INFRASTRUCTURE PROVIDER AND THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO VALUE THAT AND HOW TO BE PROFITABLE AND PROSPER IN THE FUTURE. SO THAT'S REALLY WHERE WE'RE AT ON THAT.

>> REPRESENTATIVE. >> I'M GLAD JEFF BROUGHT THAT UP. I'VE BEEN TALKING TO SCOTT ABOUT THE CONCERN THAT UNLESS HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC LOOKS AT ITS 100-YEAR-OLD CORPORATE STRATEGY, CORPORATE POLICY, AND REASSESSES THAT, THEY RUN THE RISK OF ULTIMATELY GOING THE WAY OF BLOCK BUSTER WHERE THEY BECOME. >>MALIA: BLOCK BUSTER VIDEO. >> YES. WHERE THEY USED TO BE IN PRACTICALLY EVERY CORNER AND THEY'RE GONE. THE CONCERN I HAVE, THERE'S VERY FAST MOVING TECHNOLOGY. MICROGRIDS COUPLED WITH YOUR PHOTOVOLTAIC SYSTEM ARE GOING TO BE COMING ON LINE. LARRY ELLIS IN A RECENT ARTICLE IN BLOOMBERG TALKS ABOUT THE LARRY ELLISON GOING ON WITH THE MICROGRID TECHNOLOGY FOR THE ISLAND OF LANAI. SO YOU END UP WITH THAT. YOU END UP WITH BATTERIES STORAGE. WE'VE HAD THOSE PEOPLE COME TO US AT THE CAPITOL THAT THEY'RE REALLY MOVING AT A VERY QUICK PACE.

THE HIGH TECH ENTITY. I MEAN, WHAT, 20 YEARS AGO, WE DIDN'T HAVE COMPUTERRERS. BARELY HAD COMPUTERS 20 YEARS AGO. >>MALIA: TALK ABOUT THE BATTERIES. EVERYONE I MENTIONED THIS TOPIC TO TODAY SAID ASK ABOUT THE BATTERIES. LARRY ELLISON IS A BILLIONAIRE. IS THAT SOMETHING REGULAR PEOPLE WILL BE USING. >> ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S THE THING THAT I'VE BEEN SAYING TO SCOTT, THAT THE CORPORATE POLICY HAS TO GET OUT OF FOSSIL FUEL AND THE HUNDRED YEAR STRATEGY THAT THEY'VE USED. AND LOOK AT WHAT'S COMING ON OR YOU'LL BE PASSED RIGHT BY. ABSOLUTELY. THEY'LL BE READY FOR HOMEOWNERS AND I'LL MAKE YOU A BET THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITHIN FIVE YEARS WHERE YOU HAVE YOUR PHOTOVOLTAIC COME OUT WITH YOUR MICROGRID AND THE IF NECESSARY, BATTERY STORAGE. LESS EXPENSIVE THAN WHAT WE'RE PAYING FOR NOW FOR THE FOSSIL BASED FUEL WE'RE GETTING FROM HECO. >>MALIA: CAN YOU GIVE ME MORE INFORMATION IN TERMS OF FIVE YEARS OUT, HOW WILL THIS WORK? >> IT'S HAPPENING NOW.

IT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE IS WE HAVE TO GET TO THE PLACE WHERE ROOFTOP SOLAR IS SEEN AS PART OF THE SOLUTION HERE IN HAWAI'I. NOT AS IT BEING IN THE WAY AND IT'S TAKING AWAY FROM PROFITS AND HOW DOES THAT WORK FOR EVERYBODY BECAUSE IT REALLY IS PART OF THE SOLUTION. BATTERIES FOR INSTANCE, ARE ONE OF MANY OF THE TECHNICAL FIXES AND REAL BENEFITS THAT COULD OCCUR. NOW, MOST PEOPLE DON'T GO COMPLETELY ON BATTERY. YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR I'M GOING TO GO OFF THE GRID. IT TAKES A SPECIAL PERSON TO GO OFF THE GRID RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR POOR WEATHER AND YOU MIGHT NOT — SO NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO DO THAT. I DON'T THINK THE AVERAGE AMERICAN MAYBE IS READY FOR THAT. BUT HAVING BATTERY STORAGE AS A BACK-UP OR TO SAY IF YOU OVER PRODUCE DURING THE DAY AND RATHER THAN SENDING THAT OUT ON TO THE GRID WHICH IS ONE OF THE CONCERNS, MAYBE YOU HARVEST THAT ENERGY AND YOU USE IT AT PEAK, IN THE EVENING, MAYBE IT'S DEMAND SITE MANAGEMENT SERVICE THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING IN A SENSE AND WORKING IN COLLABORATION WITH THE UTILITY.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF REALLY EXCITING THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE WITH BATTERIES BOTH BEHIND THE METER AND ALSO ON THE FEEDER CIRCUIT. AND THEY'RE GETTING MUCH MORE INEXPENSIVE AND REASONABLE. NOW, IF YOU MIGHT HAVE TO PAY FOR AN UPGRADE, THAT COSTS $8,000, WELL, CUSTOMERS MIGHT CHOOSE TO DO A BATTERY INSTEAD. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A MAD SCIENTIST ANY MORE TO HAVE A BATTERY IN YOUR GARAGE. IT'S VERY, VERY DOABLE. IT'S REALLY INTERESTING. IT'S NOT THE SOLUTION. IT'S ONE OF THE MANY SOLUTIONS THAT ARE OUT THERE. >>MALIA: IF SOMEONE RIGHT NOW IS BEING BARRED FROM HAVING SOLAR, IS HECO GOING TO EMBRACE HOME OWNERS BRINGING BATTERIES ON? >> YOU KNOW, LET ME BACK UP A BIT.

YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY, I THINK THIS IS ACTUALLY A DISCUSSION THAT IT'S ALMOST UNANIMOUS THAT EVERYBODY SEES THE EVOLUTION OF THIS ELECTRIC SYSTEM AND IT'S HAPPENING. IT'S CHANGING NO MATTER WHAT. IT'S NO MATTER WHAT ANYBODY, WHAT ANY ENTITY TRIES TO DO, IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY IS ACTUALLY EVOLVING. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE ENERGY STORAGE, WE'RE LOOKING AT STORAGE AT THE HOMEOWNER'S LOCATIONS WHICH IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT JUST NOW. WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT STORAGE TO ACTUALLY WORK AS IF IT WERE RATHER THAN A POWER PLANT, YOU HAVE AN ENERGY STORAGE PLANT ON OUR GRID. AND YOU HAVE A COMBINATION OF DISTRIBUTED STORAGE AT CUSTOMER'S LOCATIONS, DISTRIBUTED STORAGE AT SUBSTATION. MAYBE A CENTRAL LARGER STORAGE FACILITY, WHAT STORAGE CAN REALLY DO FOR YOU IS A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS. IT CAN HELP TO STABILIZE THE OUTPUT OF SOME OF THESE MORE FLUCTUATING TYPE OF ENERGY SOURCES T CAN HELP TO ABSORB SOME EXTRA ELECTRICITY THAT YOU JUST DON'T HAVE A USE FOR AT THAT GIVEN MOMENT.

IT CAN PROVIDE A MEANS OF BEING ABLE TO ACTUALLY PROVIDE THAT EXTRA JOLT OF ELECTRICITY THAT YOU NEED TO KEEP THINGS IN BALANCE. STORAGE CAN COME IN THE FORM OF A BATTERY PACK AT A CUSTOMER'S LOCATION. IT CAN COME FROM AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE WHERE REALLY I THINK EVERYBODY IS ANXIOUSLY LOOKED FORWARD TO THE DAY WHEN WE HAVE ELECTRIC VEHICLES, ABLE TO DO THAT. >>MALIA: GETTING BACK TO MY POINT. IF RIGHT NOW HOME OWNERS ARE NOT ABLE TO SERVE ACCESS SOLAR BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE UTILITIES CONCERNS, WILL BATTERIES BE WELCOME BY HECO AND WILL YOU ENCOURAGE HOME OWNERS TO GO AHEAD AND EXPLORE THAT TECHNOLOGY. >> ENERGY STORAGE, IF DONE RIGHT, CAN ACTUALLY HELP A LOT IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO SMOOTH THE OUTPUT AND ALSO BE PERHAPS A BUFFER TO THE UTILITY GRID. SO DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DESIGN AND USE THAT BATTERY, IT IT CAN ACTUAL WILL YOU PROVIDE A LOT OF HELP TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THE ISSUES. NOW, IT'S NOT LIKE LESLIE WHAT IS SAYING, IT'S A NOT A SAVE ALL SILVER BULLET FOR EVERY ISSUE. DEPENDING, I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE ADS FOR SOME OF THE BATTERIES AND IT SEEMS THAT IF SOME OF THE BATTERIES ARE INTENDED TO DO THAT TYPE OF A FUNCTION. OTHER BATTERIES ALMOST LIKE GOING OFF GRID AND OPERATING INDEPENDENTLY.

SO FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT WHEN A CUSTOMER CONSIDERS A BATTERY, THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE BATTERY, AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE BATTERY, ABOVE ALL, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S A SAFE CONNECTION AND IT'S NOT GOING TO JUST CAUSE EVEN MORE RISK TO THE CUSTOMER. >>MALIA: LET'S GET SO SOME OF THE QUESTIONS. I'M SURE WE'LL GET BACK TO BATTERIES. FROM DARREL IN MAKAKILO, IS THE PUC CAPABLE OF REFORMING THE ELECTRIC SYSTEM? MAY I DIRECT THAT TO YOU? >> WELL, UNDERSTAND THAT PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, WHICH IS ALSO CENTURY OLD INSTITUTION, 1913, IT WAS FOUNDED IN HAWAII, I MEAN, THEIR ROLE IS REALLY REGULATING UTILITIES AND WE HAVE KIND OF A REGULATORY COMPACT WHICH SAYS HECO YOU HAVE A NATURAL MONOPOLY. AND YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE A CERTAIN RETURN. BUT YOU'RE OBLIGATED TO PROVIDE POWER FOR EVERYONE. THROUGHOUT HISTORY, THEY'VE JUST KIND OF BEEN PLAYING JUDGE AND MAKING SURE THAT'S RATES ARE FAIR AND CUSTOMERS AND UTILITY.

>>MALIA: NOW? >> NOW, IT'S A WHOLE NEW WORLD. DIFFERENT LANDSCAPE. ARE THEY CAPABLE? SURE. THEY'RE CAPABLE. REALLY GOING TO HAVE TO TAP INTO SOME OF THE BEST KNOWLEDGE OUT THERE BECAUSE HAWAI'I IS AT THE CUTTING EDGE OF ALL OF THESE ISSUES. WE'RE REALLY OUT FRONT. NO ONE HAS THIS HIGH PERCENTAGE OF RENEWABLES ON SMALL ISLAND GRIDS. THAT'S WHAT WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT HAWAI'I. WE'RE NOT LIKE THE MAINLAND. WE'RE PLUGGED INTO THAT LARGE CONTINENTAL SYSTEM. LANAI AND MOLOKAI AND MAUI, WE'RE ALL SEPARATE. SO IT'S EVEN MORE DIFFICULT WITH THESE HIGH PENETRATION LIMITS. FOLKS THAT ARE THERE NOW, I THINK WE HAVE SOME REALLY GOOD PEOPLE. THEIR CHALLENGE, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES JUST GETTING THE TALENT IN THAT ORGANIZATION. IT'S A STATE ORGANIZATION. PEOPLE GO WHERE — YEAH. (SIMULTANEOUS DISCUSSION) >>MALIA: CYNTHIA, ARE YOU SATISFIED IN TERMS OF WHAT THE PUC IS DOING? >> NO.

I THINK IT'S NOT A LACK OF TRYING. I THINK IT REALLY IS, IT'S A TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT ARE NEED THERE. AND NEEDED TO STAY THERE. NOT JUST COME AND BE SORT OF A PASS-THROUGH TO HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC OR WHEREVER ELSE THEY WOULD MOVE ON. SO IT'S IN SOME WAYS, IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE BEING ABLE TO HELP THEM. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THE PHYSICAL SPACE TO HOUSE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY NEED TO PUT IN THERE AT THIS POINT. SO WE'VE KIND OF TIED THEIR HANDS IN SOME WAY. AND THAT'S THE LEGISLATURE'S RESPONSIBILITY. >>MALIA: SO WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE? >> FUNDING AND SPACE. ADEQUATE OFFICE SPACE FOR THEM TO BE HOUSED AND DO THEIR WORK. >>MALIA: IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S BEING TALKED ABOUT AT THE LEDGE THIS SESSION? >> I THINK IT CAN. >> ACTUALLY, THERE'S A BILL TODAY TO ALLOW THEM TO INCREASE THE LIMIT FROM THE PUC SPECIAL FUND.

WHICH IS ACTUALLY PAID IN BY HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC. THEY SHOULD RECEIVE ALL THAT HAVE MONEY. >>MALIA: HECO, YOU SUPPORT THIS KIND OF THING. YOU DON'T WANT THEIR HANDS TO BE TIED BECAUSE THEN EVERYTHING JUST COMES TO A STOP, THEN YOU TAKE THE HEAT BECAUSE THE RATES STAY HIGH. >> JEFF JUST SAID, IT'S ACTUALLY ALL OF THE ELECTRIC CUSTOMERS THAT ARE PROVIDING THAT FUND THAT'S PART OF OUR RATES. AND IT REALLY IS INTENDED TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT A GOOD STRONG REGULATORY FRAMEWORK. THERE'S ACTUALLY A RISK TO THE ELECTRIC COMPANY IF WE DON'T HAVE A STRONG PUC. WHY? BECAUSE IF THE PUC ISN'T CAPABLE AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO THE JOB, THEN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE ENTIRE ELECTRICITY SYSTEM CAN BE AT RISK.

WE MAY BE NOT BEING ABLE TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS OR IF WE DO MAKE CERTAIN INVESTMENTS, MAKING THE TOUGH CALLS ABOUT WHERE SHOULD THE COST GO, WE ALL I THINK CAN BENEFIT FROM HAVING A GOOD PUC AND A GOOD CONSUMER ADVOCATE AT THE SAME TIME. >>MALIA: SOLAR INDUSTRY SATISFIED WITH WHAT THE PUC IS DOING IN TERM HE IS OF ONGOING ISSUES RIGHT NO? >> NO. I WOULDN'T USE THAT WORD SATISFIED. NO. I FEEL FOR THEM. SOME OF THEM, FORMER CLASSMATES ACTUALLY WORKED FOR THE PUC AND THEY LOOK EXTREMELY TIRED WHEN I SEE THEM. I KNOW THEY'RE WORKING REALLY HARD, REALLY COMPLICATED ISSUES THEY'RE DEALING WITH. THE FACT INTERCONNECTION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER HAS A FUNDING PORTION IN IT, IT'S GREAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN UNFUNDED MANDATE THAT'S LEGISLATURE LOVES TO DO SOMETIMES. NO OFFENSE OR ANYTHING. BUT THERE'S MONEY SET ASIDE SO IT'S A TIME LINE AND THERE'S I BELIEVE IT'S $750,000 SAYING HERE'S THE ISSUE. WE NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT. WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD.

WE NEED IT BY THE END OF 2015 AND HERE IS THE MONEY TO HIRE THE ENGINEERING AND THE TECHNICAL STAFF YOU NEED. SO THAT WE CAN MAKE GOOD INFORMED DECISIONS RIGHT. >>MALIA: BRIEFLY, WE'RE GETTING A LOT OF QUESTIONS NOW. WHAT HAVE THEY NOT DONE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM DO? >> IT'S NOT SO MUCH WHAT THEY HAVE NOT DONE. I THINK IT'S THAT, WELL, IT'S THE TIMELINESS OF IT. FOR INSTANCE, THE RSWG IS ONE OF THE DOCKETS, WORKING STANDARDS RELIABILITY GROUP. IT'S LOOKING AT THESE TECHNICAL ISSUES. LANGUAGE THAT THE PUC FOR QUITE A WHILE. IT IS VERY COMPLICATED. I THINK A KEY PERSON HAD LEFT AND A LOT HAS HAPPENED. SO IT'S BEEN THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT OF ITS CONTROL AND IT'S NOT FOR WANT OF TRYING. >> I KNOW THE PEOPLE REALLY DEDICATED DOWN THERE TOO. SO. >>MALIA: LET'S GET ANOTHER QUESTIONS FROM LLOYD IN WAIANAE. IN THE PAST, THE TELEPHONE COMPANY WAS A MONOPOLY, HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC. NOW, WE HAVE MULTIPLE PROVIDERS. MIGHT THIS HAPPEN TO THE ELECTRIC SUPPLY.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. SHE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. BECAUSE I GO BACK AGAIN TO THE HIGH TECHNOLOGY, HIGH TECH, TECHNOLOGY WHERE THEY'RE MOVING SO FAST, THAT YOU RUN THE RISK OF, HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC, OF GOING THE WAY OF TELEPHONE COMPANIES THAT USED TO ONLY ALL OF THE TELEPHONES TO BE ABLE TO HAVE PEOPLE COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER. AND NOW, THEY'RE PROBABLY CLOSE TO 50% THAT DON'T EVEN HAVE A LAND LINE. HAWAIIAN TEL HAS MADE ADJUSTMENTS. IT'S MOVED WITH THE TIME. HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC, I DON'T SEE IT MAKING THOSE SAME CHOICES. AND MAKING THOSE SAME MOVES. SO WHEN YOU BRING IN YOUR MICROGRID TECHNOLOGY, THAT'S ALREADY IN PLACE, I BELIEVE, AND ON THE BIG ISLAND WHERE COMPANY CAME IN, HELPED SOME OF THE RANCHERS MOVE OFF GRID FOR CERTAIN OF THEIR ACTIVITIES.

AND YOU RUN THE RISK OF BECOMING IRRELEVANT OR JUST GONE. >> ACTUALLY, EVERYTHING THAT REPRESENTATIVE THIELEN SAYS IS TRUE. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT MORE AND MORE CUSTOMERS ARE ACTUALLY PRODUCING THEIR OWN ELECTRICITY. IT'S A FACT. 10% OF OUR CUSTOMERS RIGHT NOW CAN DO THAT AND ARE DOING THAT. WE ALSO HAVE QUITE A NUMBER OF OUR POWER COMING FROM WHAT WE CALL INDEPENDENT POWER PRODUCERS. SO THESE WOULD BE THE WIND FARMS, THE SOLAR FARMS, HPOWER, YES, WE HAVE SOME FOSSIL FUEL. IPP'S, INDEPENDENT POWER PRODUCERS AS WELL. ON THIS ISLAND, THE FIGURE THAT I USED TO USE WAS THAT AT LEAST 40% OF THE ELECTRICITY THAT'S BEING PRODUCED ON THIS ISLAND IS COMING FROM NOT HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC, BUT IT'S COMING FROM OTHER RESOURCE. AND WE ARE USING THE ELECTRIC SYSTEM TO FLOW THAT ENERGY TO THE CUSTOMERS. BUT THE REALITY IS NOW THAT THE GROWING AMOUNT OF CUSTOMER OWNED GENERATION IS CONTINUING TO BECOME A MAJOR PART OF THE RESOURCE MIX AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE HAVE TO ADOPT AND ADAPT PERHAPS OUR BUSINESS MODEL. WE HAVE TO ADAPT WITH OUR TECHNOLOGY. BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE OLD-FASHIONED ONE WAY FLOW OF ELECTRICITY TO CUSTOMERS. SO IT'S REALLY GOING TO REQUIRE ON OUR PART UNDERSTANDING HOW CAN WE ENABLE THAT TYPE OF CUSTOMER GENERATION TO ACTUALLY BE AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT ON THAT ELECTRIC SYSTEM. I THINK THAT'S REALLY BEEN ONE OF THE TRADITIONAL CHALLENGES. WHEN WE HAVE A WIND FARM, FOR EXAMPLE, OR EVEN A SOLAR FARM, WE WILL BE ABLE TO WORK WITH THOSE DEVELOPERS AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO PUT IN, INSTALL THE CONTROLS AND MONITORING DEVICES AND ACTUALLY WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME FORM OF CONTROL. AS I LOOK AT 200-MEGAWATTS, ALL OF THE ROOFTOP SOLAR ON OUR ISLAND, 200-MEGAWATTS IS MORE THAN THE BIGGEST POWER PLANTS ON THIS ISLAND. AND ON A GIVEN DAY, OUR SYSTEM, MY CONTROL GUYS WHO ARE RIGHT NOW SITTING IN OUR CONTROL ROOM, WHEN THE MORNING SUN COMINGS UP, THEY'RE NOT SURE WHAT THAT ROOFTOP SOLAR POWER PLANT IS GOING TO PLAN TO DO THAT DAY. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GET THAT ROOFTOP SOLAR TO BE VALUED BECAUSE IT IS PROVIDING VALUE.

WE ALSO WANT TO GET THAT ROOFTOP SOLAR TO BE ABLE TO BE A MORE ACTIVE PLAYER AS PARTISAN OF THIS ELECTRIC SYSTEM. SO IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE INVESTMENT ON OUR PART AND ALSO, I THINK GETTING BACK TO THE PUC, THEY HAVE THE CHALLENGE OF WE ARE TRANSFORMING THIS ELECTRIC SYSTEM. WE'RE TRANSFORMING THE FRAMEWORK AND THE PUC IS RIGHT AT THE THICK OF IT. THEY HAVE GOT TO READDRESS POLICIES. THEY'VE GOT TO READJUST OUR PROGRAMS. WE'VE GOT TO READDRESS OUR TECHNOLOGY. AND I THINK A LOT OF US HAVE TALKED, SPOKEN ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HAVE WITH OUR CUSTOMERS. I'M A CUSTOMER. EVERY ONE OF THE HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC EMPLOYEES, WE'RE ALL OUR OWN CUSTOMER. SOME OF US HAVE PV, SOME OF US DON'T. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT GETTING ELECTRICITY FROM HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC ANY MORE. AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE SOME IN TERMS OF THE BEHAVIOR OF OUR OWN HOMES. >>MALIA: RIGHT NOW, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, IT WOULD SEEM AS IF THE PERCEPTION AMONG A LOT OF RESIDENTS OF HAWAI'I IS THAT HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC IS STANDING IN THE WAY OF THEIR HAVING THE OPTION OF GETTING THAT PV.

AND THAT SOLAR OPTIONS. HOW DO YOU TURN THAT AROUND AND CONVINCE THE RESIDENTS OF HAWAI'I THAT YOU STAND BEHIND THE CHOICE FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY? >> YOU KNOW, THE WAY I EXPLAIN IT IS THIS. BECAUSE I THINK REALLY, A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T APPRECIATE WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE, TO BE AN ELECTRIC GRID AND TO OPERATE AN ELECTRIC SYSTEM. I OFTEN WILL TELL PEOPLE THAT IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE ELECTRIC SYSTEM AS A LIVING BREATHING ANIMAL, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IT MEANS THAT WHENEVER YOU TURN ON YOUR LIGHT SWITCH, YOU ARE ASKING THE ELECTRIC GRID TO PRODUCE A LITTLE BIT MORE ELECTRICITY AT THAT MOMENT. SO THAT MEANS THAT SOMEWHERE OUT THERE ON THAT ELECTRIC SYSTEM, SOME GENERATOR HAS TO INCREASE ITS PRODUCTION JUST A LITTLE BIT. IF I TURN OFF THE LIGHT SWITCH, THAT MEANS THAT SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, A GENERATOR HAS TO REDUCE ITS OUTPUT BY JUST THAT LITTLE BIT. IT'S A REAL PRIME SYSTEM AND EVERYTHING HAS TO BE IN PERFECT BALANCE IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH ELECTRICITYCY BEING PRODUCED AND HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY I IS BEING CONSUMED AT THAT MOMENT. SO WHEN PEOPLE SAY ARE YOU FOLKS MAKING THESE THINGS UP IN TERMS OF TECHNICAL CHALLENGES, ARE YOU MAKING IT UP? IS THIS JUST A BIG SHIBAI? I HATE TO SAY IT, JUST THE OTHER WEEKEND, I GOT A CALL FROM A SOLAR COMPANY AND I JUST WAS CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT WOULD THEY SAY SO I ASKED.

IS HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC MAKING THIS STUFF UP. THE PERSON ON THE PHONE SAID, YEAH, I THINK THEY ARE. I THINK IT'S ALL ABOUT PROFITS. AND I REALLY — I JUST WAS WANTING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE GENERAL SENSE OUT THERE. IT'S NOT ABOUT PROFITS. IT IS TRULY THAT WE HAVE A VERY COMPLICATED LIVING ELECTRIC SYSTEM AND ELECTRICITYCY IS REALLY POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS STUFF. >>MALIA: YOU THINK IT'S ZERO% ABOUT PROFITS? >> IT IS ZERO%. >>MALIA: DOES THAT SATISFY YOU? >> I WANT TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION TOO. BUT I JUST WANTED TO ADDRESS, I THINK WHERE SOME OF FRUSTRATION IS COMING FROM. BECAUSE IT'S TRUE, SAFETY AND RELIABILITY, EVERYBODY AGREES, EVERY SAME PERSON HAS TO AGREE THAT WE CAN'T JUST PUT THINGS ON AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. BUT THE CONCERN IS THAT AND THE QUESTION IS WHY ARE WE DOING THESE STUDIES NOW, BECAUSE PV HAS GROWN ENORMOUSLY, RIGHT? SO IN 2008, WE HAD 471 SYSTEMS PULLED. NOW WE HAVE ALMOST 40,000.

SO THE GROWTH HAS BEEN EXPONENTIAL. IT SEEMS THAT JUST NOW, WE'RE STARTING TO DO THE UTILITY IS START TO DO THE PLANNING. THAT'S WHERE THE CYNICISM COMES IN. PEOPLE GO, WELL, YOU'RE NOT REALLY NECESSARILY MAKING IT UP B. YOU YOU DON'T REALLY SEEM ALL REALLY THAT HAPPY ABOUT IT EITHER. BECAUSE NOW, WE'RE DOING STUDIES AND THEY TAKE TIME AND MONEY AND YOU HAVE TO GET A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF DATA IN ORDER TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER OR NOT IT'S SAFE AND ALL OF THAT. PEOPLE ARE VERY FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THE PLANNING HAPPENED. SO I THINK THAT'S A KEY REAL SORE POINT. >>MALIA: LET ME, FOR VIEWERS JUST JOINING US, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE DOES HAWAI'I STAND ON RENEWABLE ENERGY. WE INVITE TO YOU JOIN OUR CONVERSATION BY CALLING, E-MAILING OR TWEETING YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS. CALL 973-1000 ON OAHU. AND 800-283-4847 FROM THE NEIGHBOR ISLANDS. LET ME GET TO THESE QUESTIONS BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A LOT OF THEM. HERE'S A QUESTION. WHY NOT CREATE A NEW COMPANY TO EXPAND GRID CAPACITY? WHY NOT CREATE A NEW COMPANY? PROBABLY NOT AS SIMPLE AS THAT. >> THIS KIND OF RELATES TO THE PREVIOUS QUESTION. I DO THINK, UNLIKE MAYBE HAWAIIAN TELCOM, THERE IS A NATURAL MONOPOLY THAT THE UTILITY HAS.

AND SHOULD HAVE FOR THE GRID OPERATION. THAT'S A SYSTEM, I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO STRING TWO SETS OF WIRES NEXT TO EACH OTHER. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULD OWN AND OPERATE. AT THE END OF THE WIRE, GENERATION SIDE, THEN ON THE CUSTOMER SIDE, I THINK THERE'S ROOM FOR INNOVATION THERE AND OTHER COMPANIES TO COME IN AND DO DIFFERENT THINGS. >>MALIA: AS IN BATTERIES. >> COULD BE BATTERIES THINGS CALLED ANCILLARY SERVICES THAT CONTROLS THE FLOW OF ELECTRICITY AND FREQUENCY AND ALL OF THESE OTHER COMPLEX THINGS. >>MALIA: AND HAVE HAWAIIANA ELECTRIC TO TAKE ON MORE AS LONG AS THERE ARE SOME CHANGES THAT CAN STEM SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THEY'RE HAVING? >> RIGHT. MAIN THING THERE IS AS LONG AS THEY GET THE VALUE RIGHT AT THE END OF THE WIRE. THIS IS KIND OF CENTRAL POINT.

TALKING ABOUT NET METERING AND CUSTOMERS PLUGGED IN. THERE IS THE FEELING RIGHT NOW, COMES TO THE UTILITY SIDE HERE, THAT PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY CAN PUSH ELECTRICITY ANY TIME THEY WANT INTO THE GRID AND TAKE IT ANY TIME THEY WANT FOR THE SAME PRICE. THAT HAS TO BE PROPERLY VALUE BECAUSE ELECTRONICS THROUGHOUT THE DAY HAVE DIFFERENT VALUE. WE HAVE TO CAPTURE THAT. IT MIGHT BE AT 1:00 WHEN ALL THE SOLAR IS GOING. THIS MIGHT BE CHEAP ELECTRICITY. FILL UP OUR ELECTRIC VEHICLES. 6:30 AT NIGHT WHEN EVERYONE COMES HOME AND TURNS ON THE LIGHT AND TV AND WASHER AND DRIER, THAT'S REALLY VALUABLE ELECTRICITY. PAY MORE FOR THAT. >>MALIA: LET'S GET TO SOME OTHER QUESTIONS. BILL IN HONOLULU. WHY ARE WE NOT USING THAT BIOMASS ON OAHU. USING EUROPEAN GASIFICATION TECHNOLOGY. ANYONE WANTS TO GRAB THAT ONE? GASIFICATION.

>> I'LL JUST SAY IT SEEMS LIKE FOLKS COME HERE ALL THE TIME AND KNOCK ON SCOTT'S DOOR DAILY. THEY HAVE A GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY. IT'S ALMOST READY. WE HAVE A PROTOTYPE. >>MALIA: NEW POSSIBLIES OUT THERE. ALL RIGHT. >> A COMMENT. FROM KUULEI IN MAKAHA. WHAT IS GOING ON IN TERMS OF RENEWABLE ENERGY IN TERMS OF, WILL IT IMPACT OR DECREASE GLOBAL WARMING? OBVIOUSLY, RENEWABLE ENERGY BEING A STRONG. >> SHOULD REALLY BE HELPING THAT ISSUE, RIGHT? BECAUSE THE LESS FOSSIL FUEL WE'RE BURNING, THAT'S THE END GOAL. >>MALIA: THE OTHER COMMENT IS ALL OF THIS RENEWABLE ENERGY IS A MOOT ISSUE BECAUSE OF THE TAX CREDITS. ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT? >> OKAY, LISTEN TO THIS ONE. FROM VINCENT IN KAHALUU REGARDING PHOTOVOLTAIC. HECO SOUNDS A SOUR APPLE. THEY NEED TO WRAP UP THEIR SYSTEM.

HECO IS NOT READY FOR THIS. >> WE ARE PLAYING CATCH-UP AND EXPONENTIAL GROWTH IN SOLAR ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE TO GET AHEAD OF THE CURVE. >> LET ME JUST ADD A LITTLE FOOTNOTE TO THAT. REASON I KEEP SAYING IS THAT THEY NEED TO CHANGE, THEY NEED TO GET A DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL. UNIVERSITY OF SAN DIEGO IS SAVING $850,000 AFTER A MONTH IN UTILITY COSTS. ELECTRICITY COSTS. AND THEY ARE SELF GENERATING AND THEY HAVE A MICROGRID SYSTEM. >> THEY'RE STILL CONNECTED TO THE GRID THOUGH. THEY ARE STILL CONNECTED TO THE GRID. >> OKAY. BUT LOOK AT THAT. LOOK AT THE SAVING AND LOOK AT THE TECHNOLOGY. IT'S COMING. IT'S COMING. IT'S NOT HERE TODAY BUT I'M SURE SCOTT RECOGNIZES IT. >> ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT MICROGRIDS. THAT IS DEFINITELY WHETHER IT'S ON LANAI, WITH MR. ELLISON, OR THERE'S AN ENTITY LOOKING AT MOLOKAI ABOUT ESTABLISHING MOLOKAI AS A MICROGRID, PARKER RANCH IS ANOTHER ONE, MILITARY CAMP SMITH INVESTIGATING ACTUALLY IN THE PROCESS OF DEPLOYING A MICROGRID. SO WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT IS A POTENTIAL WHERE YOU DO HAVE CERTAIN ENTITIES OR LAND OWNERS THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE ABLE TO MAKE INVESTMENTS IN THEIR MICROGRIDS AND PROVIDE VALUE TO THOSE CUSTOMERS AND AS I COMMENTED ABOUT THE SAN DIEGO SITUATION, MOST OF THOSE MICROGRIDS WILL PROBABLY STILL BE CONNECTED TO THE MAIN GRID BECAUSE THE MAIN GRID, AGAIN, PROVIDES A LOT OF THE BACK-UP CAPABILITIES AND SUCH.

SO THE REAL BUSINESS MODEL I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE EVOLVING IS HOW CAN YOU ENABLE THOSE MICROGRIDS TO PROVIDE THAT VALUE TO THOSE CUSTOMERS WHILE ALSO, JEFF, YOU MENTIONED GETTING THE VALUATION RIGHT, THE VALUE OF STILL HAVING THAT GRID CONNECTION. AND THEN ALSO MAKING SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT EXPERTISE TO OPERATE EVERYTHING SUCCESSFULLY. >>MALIA: ALL RIGHT, FROM ALAN IN HONOLULU. WHY CAN'T WE DEVELOP GEOTHERMAL ENERGY LIKE ICE LAND? THEY PAY THREE CENTS PER KILOWATT AND HILO PAYS FORTY CENTS PER KILOWATT. >> THERE'S SOME REQUESTS FOR PROPOSALS OUT ON THE BIG ISLAND LOOKING AT NEW GEOTHERMAL. THAT'S SUCH A GREAT RESOURCE ON BIG ISLAND. THEY'RE LOOKING AT POSSIBLY ON MAUI AS WELL. SOME PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT OAHU. WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S POSSIBLE. GEOTHERMAL ON THE BIG ISLAND IS NO-BRAINER AND PERHAPS SCOTT CAN MENTION WHERE SOME OF THAT IS AT IN THE PROCESS.

>> RIGHT. I CAN ONLY REALLY SHARE THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE RFP. SO HAWAI'I ELECTRIC LIGHT IS GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS OF AN RFP FOR NEW GEOTHERMAL. THEY INITIATED THAT PROCESS LAST YEAR. THEY DID RECEIVE A NUMBER OF BIDS. THEY'VE BEEN WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH EVALUATING THOSE BIDS AND PERHAPS THAT'S ABOUT ALL I CAN SHARE AT THIS MOMENT. BUT ABSOLUTELY, I MEAN THE POTENTIAL OF GEOTHERMAL BEING A GOOD CHEAP FIRM RENEWABLE RESOURCE, THAT'S REALLY WHAT THE END GOAL IS. >>MALIA: SPEAKING OF GOOD FIRM RENEWABLE RESOURCE, WAVE ENERGY, AND MY PASSION, WHEN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE ONE OF THE SECOND BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD WITH WAVE ENERGY POWER, AND AVAILABLE AND YOU DON'T USE UP YOUR LAND MASS, THE MARINE CORPS BASE HAWAI'I IS DEPLOYING ANOTHER WAVE ENERGY CONVERTER AND IT MAY BE NEXT MONTH THAT IT GOES INTO THE WATER DURING THE APPROPRIATE TIME. THAT, I BELIEVE, SCOTT, IT WAS ROBBIE ALM THAT TOLD ME WAVE ENERGY IS A FIRM POWER BECAUSE YOU USE THE NOAA SUB LIGHTS TO GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION WHEN THE WAVE CLIMATE WILL CHANGE, AND YOU GET THAT INFORMATION 24 OR 48 HOURS OFF, THEN THE UTILITY CAN MAKE ITS ADJUSTMENTS.

SO WE ARE SURROUNDED BY A FIRM POWER. >>MALIA: THIS IS A QUESTION OF ROBYN'S FROM THE NIGHT. SINCE WE ARE AN ISLAND STATE, WHY DON'T WE GET MORE RENEWABLE ENERGY FROM THE WATER WHICH IS ALL AROUND US AND WILL BE HERE FOREVER. WHY HASN'T THAT HAPPENED YET. >> THAT'S A BRILLIANT QUESTION. I THANK THE PERSON THAT CALLED IT IN. IT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED. UNFORTUNATELY, THE ONE THAT HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC, MAUI ELECTRIC WAS INVOLVED WITH, VERY GOOD SYSTEM OFF OF MAUI, THERE WAS A DEBATE ABOUT WHO IS GOING TO PAY FROM THE DEVICE TO SHORE CABLE AND SO MAUI ELECTRIC CANCELED THE PROJECT. I MEAN, THAT'S KIND OF CORPORATE THINKING THAT BOTHERS ME SO MUCH BECAUSE THERE COULD BE A WAY TO STRUCTURE THAT AGREEMENT WHERE MAUI ELECTRIC WOULD HAVE REGAINED SOME OF THAT COST FURTHER ON DOWN THE ROAD. AND MAYBE THE PUC WAS AT FAULT TOO BECAUSE IT'S A TECHNOLOGY THAT ISN'T IN OUR WATERS. CERTAINLY IS IN EUROPE.

UNITED KINGDOM, SCOTLAND IS POWERING CERTAIN AREAS TOTALLY WITH WAVE ENERGY AND YES, WE SHOULD BE DOING IT. >>MALIA: THIS IS FROM WAIANAE, HAVE THE LEGISLATURE GIVEN HAWAIIAN ELECTRIC THE RIGHT TO RAISE THE RATES OF NONSOLAR CUSTOMERS TO COVER THEIR LOSSES? >> WELL, I THINK THE QUESTION WAS DIRECTED AT THE LEGISLATURE. THE CURRENT STRUCTURE THAT WE HAVE OF OUR RATES IS VERY MUCH THE CASE, THAT WHEN A CUSTOMER DOES NOT HAVE SOLAR, WE ARE ASKING THAT CUSTOMER TO PAY A LITTLE BIT MORE BECAUSE WE HAVE TO COVER THE COSTS OF RUNNING THE ENTIRE ELECTRIC SYSTEM. AND A PERSON WITH SOLAR IS PAYING A LITTLE BIT LESS BECAUSE THEY ARE PRODUCING MOST OF THEIR OWN ELECTRICTY. BUT YET THEY ARE STILL USING THE GRID. IT'S PART OF THE EXISTING REGULATORY STRUCTURE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE THINK OUGHT TO BE KEYED UP IN THIS PUC PROCEEDING. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THE HIGHER PRIORITY ISSUE IS ON THE TECHNICAL. IT'S ON THE BEING ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO OPERATE RELIABLY, THAT PV CAN BE BROUGHT ON AND THE OTHER RESOURCES ON THE GRID ALL CAN BASICALLY WORK TOGETHER SO IT'S THE TECHNICAL ISSUES, AS WELL AS THE ECONOMIC ISSUES. SO THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS YES, THAT IS TRUE.

WE ARE TECHNICALLY ASKING OUR NONPV CUSTOMERS TO PAY A LITTLE BIT MORE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT. >>MALIA: I'D LIKE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THAT. >> I'D LOVE TO WEIGH IN ON THAT. YOU HEAR ALL THE THE TIME AND YOU PUT IT IN A REALLY BALANCED WAY. BUT I HEAR IT OFTEN SAID, THAT PV CUSTOMERS, THEY'RE THE ONLY ONES WHO BENEFITS. EVERYBODY ELSE HAS TO PAY FOR THAT. IT MAKES IT SOUND SELFISH AND SELF SERVING. IT'S NOT THE WHOLE PICTURE. IT'S KIND OF COMPLICATED, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL, A LOT OF BENEFITS THAT ALL RATE PAYORS GET FROM PHOTOVOLTAICS, NOT JUST THE INDIVIDUAL WHO INVESTS IN A ROOFTOP SYSTEM. THIS LAST WEEK, FOR INSTANCE, THERE IS A HONOLULU POWER PLANT HAS RETIRED ONE OF ITS FOSSIL FUEL GENERATORS AND THEY WERE ABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE OF THE ROOFTOP AND RENEWABLES THAT ARE ON LINE. SO IMAGINE THAT CAPITAL COSTS TO EVERY RATE PAYOR IN 2,014-DOLLARS TO BUILD MORE POWER PLANTS TO COVER LOAD.

THEY HAVE TWO OTHER GENERATORSES DUE TO THE RETIRED MOTH BALL BY 2016, ONE ON MAUI, SO WHEN YOU GENERATE YOUR OWN ELECTRICITY, YEAH, YOUR BILL GOES DOWN, BUT IT'S ALSO DOING THINGS FOR THE ENTIRE GRID WHERE ALL OF US DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THOSE UPGRADES AND MAINTENANCE WHICH WAS EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. >>MALIA: FAIRNESS TO SOLAR INDUSTRY, IT DOES PROVIDE A LOT OF JOBS. >> YES. >>MALIA: QUITE A FEW PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS. >> THE OTHER THING IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFITS TOO. I THINK IT'S A SHAME THAT EXTERNAL TIES, BIG THING FOR THE PLANET, THERE ISN'T A PRICE TAG THERE. PREVIOUS QUESTIONER ASKED ABOUT THAT. AND RIGHT NOW, NAN SYSTEM, ROOFTOP SOLAR SYSTEM WE HAVE, SOMETHING LIKE 700,000 BARREL OF OILS A YEAR THAT IS NOT BURNED IN HAWAI'I BECAUSE OF THE ROOFTOP SOLAR.

NOW, HOW CAN THAT NOT BE A BENEFIT TO EVERYBODY? THEN THERE'S THE JOBS. RIGHT? THERE'S THE JOBS FOR PEOPLE LIVING AND WORKING HERE, THERE IS THE MONEY THAT STAYS HERE THAT WE DON'T SEND OUT TO OIL PRODUCING COMPANIES THAT PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL OR POLITICAL OR POSSIBLY AGENDAS THAT WE REALLY TRULY SUPPORT AND THAT'S ALL KEPT HERE IN THE STATE. PLUS THE STABILITY OF KNOWING THAT WE HAVE AN ELECTRIC GRID THAT WE CAN COUNTS UPON. WHEN I HEAR, YOU KNOW, AND ACTUALLY, THE LATEST NIM REPORT AND I DID THE CALCULATION FOR OAHU WHICH WAS A LITTLE HIGHER, AND IT'S COSTING CUSTOMERS ABOUT ANOTHER I THINK IT WAS 62 CENTS A WEEK FOR THE POWER THAT IS BEING PRODUCED BY ROOFTOP SOLAR. SO FOR 62 CENTS A WEEK, YOU GET JOBS, YOU GET CLEANER ENVIRONMENT, YOU GET MORE STABILITY, YOU GET FOSSIL FUEL POWER PLANTS. >> I COULD GO ON ABOUT THIS.

>> THE 62 CENTS IS A PRETTY ACCURATE ESTIMATION, BUT WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN? TRANSLATE THAT TO THE CUSTOMER WHO LIVES IN THE APARTMENT BUILDING WHO IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT PV ON THE ROOF. THAT CUSTOMER IS THE ONE WHO IS PAYING THAT EXTRA 62 CENTS A WEEK TO BE ABLE TO COVER THE COST OF THE — THE ROOFTOP SOLAR IS NOT WHAT ALLOWED US TO RETIRE THE HONOLULU POWER PLANT. THE POWER PLANT WAS THERE AND WE PLANNED HOW MANY POWER PLANS WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO COVER THE PEAK LOAD OF THE DAY. ACTUALLY, THE PEAK LOAD HAPPENS IN THE EVENING HERE. NIGHT TIME, WHEN SOLAR IS NOT PRODUCING, WE STILL HAVE, THAT'S THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY THAT ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS ARE USING. IT HAPPENS AT NIGHT TIME. SO AS WE HAVE SEEN ENERGY EFFICIENCY COME IN, THAT HAS DONE MORE THAN ANYTHING TO BE ABLE TO REDUCE THAT PEAK.

SO OUR ABILITY TO RETIRE THE OLD POWER PLANTS IS BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED THAT EXTRA GENERATING CAPACITY AND WHY NOT RETIRE? IT'S AN OLD PLANT. LESS EFFICIENT. SO I JUST WANT TO MAKE CLEAR THAT THAT SOLAR DOES PROVIDE VALUE. BUT THERE ARE ALSO QUESTIONS OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE FOR SOLAR. ROOFTOP NET ENERGY METERING PROGRAM WAS PURPOSELY SET UP TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE SUBSIDIES AND FLEXIBILITIES TO THE CUSTOMER. THAT WAS HOW IT WAS STRUCTURED. WE KNEW THAT GOING ON. WHEN YOU COMPARE THAT TO FOR EXAMPLE A SOLAR FARM WHICH IS SELLING ELECTRICITY TO THE UTILITY, WE ARE PROVIDING BENEFIT OF THAT SOLAR FARM TO ALL OF THE CUSTOMERS. SO WE DON'T HAVE THAT SAME ISSUE. >>MALIA: WE'RE IN OUR FINAL 10 MINUTES. IF I MAY, SO MANY QUESTIONS. REALLY WOULD LIKE TO GET TO THEM. A LOT OF QUESTIONS ON SOLAR. LET'S GET TO A FEW NONSOLAR. FROM BOB IN PAHOA.

PANEL NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF COST. HOW DO WE BRING THE COST OF ELECTRICITY DOWN TO TWENTY CENTS PER KILOWATT HOUR REGARDLESS OF THE TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY USED. WHY IS THE PANEL FOCUSING THEIR ATTENTION SO MUCH ON PV ALONE. WE'LL GET TO THE NORTHWEST USES HYDROPOWER AND CUSTOMERS ARE PAYING SEVEN CENTS PER KILOWATT HOUR. YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? >> I WOULD SAY WAVE ENERGY IS A NATURAL AND BRINGS IN THE POWER TO THE GRID AT A VERY REASONABLE PRICE. SO I WOULD SAY IT'S THE LACK OF COMMITMENT AND LEADERSHIP AND I THINK I COULDN'T HAVE RECEIVED A MORE DISAPPOINTING MESSAGE FROM MECO VIA HECO THAT YOU WERE CANCELING THE WAVE ENERGY PROJECT AFTER THE PERSON HAD BEEN IN THE WORKS OF THAT FOR YEARS. WE'RE SEEING SOME CONTRACTS THAT MIGHT BE AT 15 CENTS, 16 CENTS.

SO WE'RE GOING TO STABILIZE RATESES AND GET THEM DOWN THERE. AS WE ADD MORE LOW COST RENEWABLES, WIND ENERGY GETTING CHEAPER AND CHEAPER THAN JUST GETTING THAT MODERN GRID THAT WE NEED TO PLUG EVERYTHING IN. I THINK WE CAN SEE RATES THAT ARE STARTING TO APPROACH THAT NUMBER. >>MALIA: FROM JOYCE IN HAIKU, MAUI, I LIVE ON MAUI. THERE'S A PLAN OR PROPOSAL TO RUN A CABLE FROM OAHU. OVER ABUNDANCE OF RESOURCES. WHY DOES OAHU WANT ENERGY FROM THE OUTSIDE ISLANDS? THERE HAVE BEEN QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS ON THE UNDERWATER CABLE. OUR STANCE IS THAT WE OUGHT TO GO TO THE MARKET. WE WANT TO SEE WHAT WILL THIS CABLE TRULY COST AND FROM THAT POINT, WE CAN MAKE A BETTER ENINFORMED DECISION ON THE CABLE. >>MALIA: ALL RIGHT. >> WE AGREE WITH THAT POSITION. SOME OF THE VALUE IT COULD BRING.

WHEN WE TIE THE GRIDS TOGETHER, INDEPENDENT GRIDS, IT'S KIND OF LIKE AN OUTRIGGER. YOU'RE GOING TO GET THAT STRENGTH FROM HUIING UP TOGETHER, SHARING RESOURCES IS IMPORTANT. ALSO SHARING GEOGRAPHIC DIVERSITY. WHEN THE WIND DIES DOWN IN MAUI, YOU CAN USE OAHU. WHEN THE CLOUD COMES OVER OAHU, YOU CAN USE MAUI. THERE IS SOME STRENGTH THERE. EVEN HIGH PRICE TAG. IT IT WILL LOWER RATES. >> I'M SORRY, I THINK IT WAS THAT'S RESOURCES MIGHT ACTUALLY BE ON MAUI AND ABUNDANT ON MAUI. >> RIGHT. AND OAHU. >> BE ABLE TO TAP THOSE RESOURCE. >> WE DON'T NEED A COSTLY CABLE. THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY DID A ANALYSIS. EACH ISLAND HAS ADEQUATE WAVE ENERGY POWER TO PROVIDE ALL THE POWER THAT THE ISLAND NEED IT'S WITH THE EXCEPTION OF OAHU, IT CAN PROVIDE 80%. BUT YOU KNOW THAT WE CAN GET MUCH FROM PHOTOVOLTAIC SOLAR. SO WE DO NOT NEED A COSTLY UNDERSEA CABLE. >>MALIA: FROM JOSEPH IN WAIKAPU. THE COMPARISONS TO ROBUST COMPETITION IN TELECOMMUNICATIONS IS RELEVANT AND VALUABLE.

WHAT IS HECO DOING TO CREATE OPEN ARCHITECTURE ON THE NETWORK GRID. WOULD HECO WELCOME SOME FORM OF COMPETITION. >> WE BELIEVE THERE IS COMPETITION ALREADY. IT'S OUT THERE BECAUSE WE PROCURE ENERGY FROM ANY NUMBER OF COMPANIES. WE RUN COMPETITIVE RFP'S TO PRODUCE TO THAT ELECTRICITY. LIKE I SAID EARLIER, 40% OF THE ENERGY HERE ON OAHU IS ACTUALLY NOT PRODUCED BY US. WE HAVE OPENED THAT AND OUR PUC NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, ADOPTED THIS COMPETITIVE BIDDING FRAMEWORK TO REQUIRE THAT. THE CUSTOMER GENERATION, AGAIN, IT'S NOT COMPETING PER SE WITH US. BUT IT IS ANOTHER FORM TO BE ABLE TO OPEN THE GRID FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO GENERATE. >>MALIA: FOR THOSE AREAS NO OTHER COMPANY TO GO TO. >> LET ME SAY THE TRUE COMPETITION IS GOING TO COME FROM MICROGRID AND BATTERY STORAGE. THAT'S GOING TO BE THE TRUE COMPETITION AND THAT WILL BE OUTSIDE THE HECO'S HANDS. >>MALIA: FROM MARY IN HONOLULU. ARE THERE RESIDENTIAL SOLAR ENERGY HUBS WHERE CONSUMERS CAN HOOK INTO THE SYSTEM WITHOUT EACH HOUSE HAVING A PV SYSTEM.

IS ANYTHING BEING PLANNED? >> YEAH. THERE IS A MEASURE GOING THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE CALLED COMMUNITY RENEWABLES AND THIS WOULD REALLY OPEN UP ACCESS TO THE MAJORITY OF RESIDENTS AND BUSINESSES WHO CURRENTLY CAN'T ACCESS IT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER. YOU LIVE IN A CONDO OR A HIGH-RISE OR YOU HAVE SHADING OVER YOUR ROOF. WE'RE INTRIGUED BY THE POSSIBILITY OF THIS WHERE PEOPLE CAN HUI UP ON HUI ON SOMEONE ELSE'S ROOF, LARGE SCALE UTILITY PROJECT, ALL BENEFIT FROM THE ENERGY PRODUCED OFF SITE. WE HOPE CAN HE CAN MOVE THAT MEASURE FORWARD. >>MALIA: RICK IN KANEOHE. I'M WONDERING HOW YOU SUPPORT THE $20,000 TAX CREDIT FOR PV SYSTEMS AND YET ROOFTOP PV IS AT A HIGHER COST FOR ELECTRICITY.

I SUPPOSE THERE'S THE QUESTION ABOUT TAX CREDITS. ARE TAX CREDITS A FAIR THING TO BE GIVING SOLAR? >> I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE MEANS BY THE 20,000. WE DO STILL HAVE STATE TAX CREDIT BECAUSE I HEARD SOMEONE ELSE EARLIER SAY THERE WAS NO TAX CREDIT ANY MORE. WE STILL HAVE A TAX CREDIT, FEDERAL TAX CREDIT AND CUSTOMERS STILL PAY A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR THEIR OWN SYSTEM. THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES WITH THE COST IS I THINK A LOT OF TIMES, IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S ALL FOR FREE AND GET A LOT OF FREE THINGS, BUT ACTUALLY INVEST A BUNCH OF THEIR OWN MONEY IN THE SYSTEM WHICH HELPS THE ENTIRE STATE. SO FOR ALL THE REASONS I WON'T REITERATE, BUT THE BENEFITS OF SOLAR GIVES TO THE STATE OF HAWAI'I, YES. >>MALIA: THIS IS RELATED QUESTION FROM BRIAN. DOES THE STATE HAVE PLANS TO SUBSIDIZE THE LOSS OF FEDERAL TAX CREDITS FROM DELAYS FROM HECO? >> WELL, POTENTIALLY, WHAT THEY MIGHT BE REFERRING TO IS THERE'S SOME PROJECTS OUT THERE.

>>MALIA: YOU CAN'T GET YOUR FILLER IN TIME TO GET THESE FEDERAL TAX CREDIT AND YOU MISS IT, WHAT HAPPENS. >> RIGHT. PERHAPS. REAL LARGE PROJECTS THAT ARE PENDING 2016 FEDERAL EXPIRATION. THE PUC HAS TO APPROVE THEM AND THEN UTILITY HAS TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN INTERCONNECT. THAT IS A REALLY TIGHT TIME LINE BUT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SAVE RATE PAYORS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS IF THEY CAN GET IT. >> IT TRYING TO PUSH HARD TO SEE IF WE CAN GET AS MANY PROJECTS AS WE CAN INSTALLED BEFORE THE TAX CREDIT EXPIRE. >>DAVID: LET'S SEE. SO MANY QUESTIONS. WHY DO SOLAR CUSTOMERS GET A FREE RIDE FOR CONNECTION TO THE GRID AND THE SERVICE THAT IT PROVIDES? WE PAY THE GAS COMPANY A BASIC CHARGE EACH MONTH FOR BE ON THEIR SERVICE. WOULD SOMETHING LIKE A MONTHLY CHARGE SORT OF BE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD LOOK AT.

>> LESLIE, YOU ANSWER THAT. YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD AS GRASP OF THAT. >>MALIA: WE'RE IN OUR FINAL MINUTES. >> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED. HAVING A TRUE COST BENEFIT INCLUDING SOME OF THE THINGS I ALREADY TALKED ABOUT, PLUS OTHER BENEFITS, ROOFTOP PV BRINGS IN, IT'S NOT A FREE RIDE. BENEFITS TO ALL RATE PAYORS. RIGHT NOW, FOR INSTANCE, WITH ENERGY EFFICIENCY, EVERYBODY PAYS FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY. ON YOUR BILL. PVF ON YOUR BILL, IF I BUY A REFRIGERATOR, PUC HAS DETERMINED THAT IT'S GOOD FOR EVERYBODY BECAUSE WE USE LESS ELECTRICITY. IT'S NOT A FREE RIDE, IT'S BENEFICIAL TO ALL RATE PAIRS. SHOULD THERE BE A FEE OR COST, I THINK THAT WILL COME UP.

>> EXACTLY. WHAT IS THE TRUE VALUE. >> LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE. PART OF THE PROBLEM. IT HASN'T BEEN DISCUSSED. >>MALIA: MAY BE OUR FINAL QUESTION. FROM MAHI IN KALIHI. WHEN IS IT ENVISIONED THAT OAHU WILL BE 100% FREE OF FOSSIL FUEL? SCOTT, MAY I START WITH YOU? >> SURE. WELL, ACTUALLY, THERE IS ANOTHER BILL THAT'S GOING THROUGH THE LEDGE RIGHT NOW WHICH WOULD EXTEND THE GOALS FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY HERE IN HAWAI'I. I THINK IT'S PROPOSED THAT BY THE YEAR 2050, THERE WOULD BE 100% RENEWABLE. >> 2181. >> WE SUPPORT SETTING GOALS BEYOND 2030. WE REALLY NEED TO SEE THAT RENEWABLE ENERGY THOUGH BE ABLE TO PUSH PEOPLE'S BILLS DOWN SO WE WANT THAT 100% CLEAN ENERGY. WE WANT TO PUSH THE BILLS DOWN THOUGH AT THE SAME TIME. >> YOU WERE SAYING EARLIER TO ME THAT IT MAY NOT BE REALISTIC THAT EVERYONE WHO WANTS SOLAR GETS SOLAR. THAT'S JUST THE REALITY. >> I THINK YOU ASKED TWO VERY QUESTIONS. 100% RENEWABLE ISN'T 100% ROOFTOP SOLAR MUCH THERE'S BIOMASS, GEOTHERMAL, WAVE.

THAT IS THE DISCUSSION HAS TO UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT ROOFER TOP SOLAR. KEY PIECE. BUT IT'S NOT ONLY. >> IT'S JUST A PART. >>MALIA: DO YOU THINK WE'LL BE 100% FREE? >> NO. AS NEIL BORE SAID, PREDICTIONS ARE HARD TO MAKE ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE FUTURE. YEAH, WE WILL AND WE'RE GOING TO GET THERE I THINK SOONER THAN WE THINK. WHAT'S SO EXCITING IS HOW FAST TECHNOLOGY IS EVOLVING IN THIS AREA. BUT WE DO NEED THAT LEADERSHIP TO SET THE VISION AND SAY WE CAN DO THIS, POWER OURSELVES WITH INDIGENOUS ENERGY AND STRIVE FOR T THINK WE HAVE THE RIGHT WILL OF THE PEOPLE, TECHNOLOGY, WE JUST NEED TO LINE UP EVERYTHING AND GET THERE. >>MALIA: WE HAVE TIME FOR ABOUT ONE SENTENCE. >> ABSOLUTELY THINK SO. I THINK IT WILL BE SOONER THAN 2050. WE CAN DO IT. >>MALIA: >> WE HAVE TO. HAWAI'I, IT'S ALL LINED UP RIGHT HERE. WE CAN BE THE EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD.

AND WE HAVE TO SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY. >> THANK YOU. I LEARNED SO MUCH TONIGHT. I APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU COMING. NEXT TIME ON INSIGHTS, HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE IS FLOURISHING AFTER NEARLY DYING OUT. ALSO RECOGNIZED AS A STATE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE ALONG WITH ENGLISH IN OUR STATE CONSTITUTION. ARE WE DOING ENOUGH TO PRESERVE OUR NATIVE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE? WHAT ARE THE SOME OF LESSONS FROM THE PAST WE CAN LEARN FROM? WHAT ROLE DOES THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE PLAY IN OUR STATE? THAT'S NEXT TIME ON INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI'I. I'M MALIA MATTOCH. A HUI HO.